US Military Dead during Iraq War 1045

Kelli Halliburton

What opposition?

And I don't think any such thing because you can choose to "trim" out whatever you like in reply (in fact, you should do so and I actively encourage that my posts are NOT duplicated in full: Pick out, as per "netiquette" guidelines, those quotations you want to respond to...or quote a few choice parts which show the "general topic" that you want to reply to...wolfgang employs a "snip" where he himself summarises the topic he's replying to instead, which is another good means to do it)...

You totally mistake the intent...I see no "opposition"...I do, of course, see disagreement on a topic that always is going to cause "differences of opinion"...and I do see the interesting opinions and such of other people, which is why I engage in the conversation to try to understand the opposing view...

I mean, have you not applied the obvious "logic" here? I'm talking about the inherent stupidity of "war" and "conflict"...why would you think I'm, thus, "fighting a war"? I'm trying to understand the other opinions...and, in return, presenting my own...

The "enemy" I have here is my own lack of understanding...in response, I'm hearing very interesting perspectives...and this isn't a "clear cut" issue, of course, so I don't find myself completely disagreeing, even with those things I don't really want to agree with...I Hope my perspective in return provides you different ways to see the issue (you don't have to agree...indeed, to fully understand the issue, it's better that we don't agree...this brings out all the "angles" and "opinions" about the topic)...

If I "win" at the expense of everyone else then, to me, this seems like failure, not success...what better understanding of the problem? Of what causes it? Of why we persist in a continual nonsense like "war", when none of us really want it on our doorsteps? That would be a failure of the discussion, in my opinion, if one opinion "dominates" and pushes out all others...either we ALL progress in our understanding or this discussion proves to be a FAILURE, in my opinion...

As Gandhi remarked: "hate the sin, love the sinner"...or Aristotle: "We are what we repeatedly do"...I don't see that my disagreement with you on something means I can't like you, as a person...I differentiate completely being a person and their action...I, for example, regularly make mistakes here and there...I don't believe that these mistakes - which we all make from time to time - invalidate me as a person (and wouldn't think this in return)...or the wider spirit of something I might have to say...I am NOT personalising it...at least, not in that sense...

The Descartesean principles of "detachment"...I disagree with you on something, doesn't mean I disagree with you as a person...they are alternative "hypotheses" and, well, absent evidence, neither is "better" or "worse" than the other...when no-one knows - there is no evidence - then anyone's "guess" is as good as anyone else's guess...all opinions are valid...I want to hear those opinions...it's "evidence gathering", if you will...there's no way to derive the truth by only allowing yourself to see what you already know...it's everything I don't know that I want to hear about...whatever my "belief", the evidence is the final arbiter...I may be wrong but I'll only know that from listening to everyone and trying to objectively analyse what I hear...make a good point and I will agree with it (if it pbuttes the "test", so to speak, of validating itself)...

I am trying to discuss the topic and encouraging discussion on any and all "facets" of the topic...this is not about "winning" or, quite frankly - as I do feel now - the posting was a FAILURE, in that you've all stopped talking, not continued to talk...

simple

What "flame war"? Oh, yeah, for some here, that's what this is...but, to me, I don't want it to be that...I want to DISCUSS, not play some pointless useless "battle of wits" (because, basically, I would "win": Comprehend that point...if we were doing what you think is going on, then I would have won...I have "overwhelming military force" in that regard)...

Exactly, exactly; And this is the point you've missed...

I DO perfectly know - am fully aware - that "such exchanges reward pith and brevity"...I'm NO fracking "newbie" to USENET, I butture you...

Instead of buttuming me an "idiot" for being "unconventional", you could have applied that "logic" itself to work out what's going on: "Flame war exchanges reward pith and brevity"...and, if you buttume that I do KNOW that, then work it out for yourself: I'm not being "pithy" because I do NOT want such an "exchange"...nor do I want "Scooby snack" rewards...this is NOT my objective in this DISCUSSION...

So, can you see what's going on? I DON'T want a "flame war"...so I'm NOT doing that which "rewards" such "exchanges"...I'm, if you like, "conscientiously objecting" to joining the "flame war"...I'm NOT going along with the "flame war" because I DON'T want a "flame war"...I'm NOT in the slightest bit interested in that nor "winning" it...so, I do that which does NOT reward it, that which does NOT furnish it, that which does NOT encourage or feed the "flame war"...

It's NOT "pithy" because I don't just want to "look good and walk away" as some "winner" of the "battle of wits"...if that were the intention, I'd have "won" already (oh, yes, I'm that arrogant that if I had the intention of a "battle of wits" then I'd have rushed right into it with both guns blazing...but I don't want to "dissolution the opposition" - that's entirely NOT what is the objective - I want the opposition to TELL ME what it's alternative opinions on the matter is...I need the "enemy" alive, so to speak, in order to learn to UNDERSTAND what the "enemy" is thinking...why you're of the opposing opinion to me...I can't find out that out from a corpse)...

That exactly what you've missed...failed to appreciate...I don't want a "war" (flame or otherwise)...and so I care very little, indeed, who "wins" that nonsense I don't even want to see in the first place (when I object pbuttionately, it's to "silencing" and those who "bully" and try to "dominate" because you try to STOP the discussion...keep the discussion going and you can say whatever you like that I disagree with...indeed, I'll want to keep it going, encouraging you to voice your opposing opinion, asking questions about it)...

"The only way to win is to deny the battle" Shifu, "Absolute Power", Stargate SG-1

I don't want to "win"...or, at least, my definition of "win" is that we ALL begin to understand each other's perspectives better...that the discussion and understanding is progressed...as such, disagreement is NOT the problem (on the contrary, this causes the issue to be "examined" from even more angle, the more and longer we disagree: It's damn useful for you NOT to be agreeing with me, it means we've got more of the "angles" that this topic can be seen from...it means the conversation keeps going and might "progress" somewhere)...but "bullies" who try to "push" their opinion to silence and end the discussion? Oh, yes...I'll pbuttionately object to that...there is NOT a single "truth" here and I think that if one "wins" then that simply everyone else "loses"...and that means we all "lose" overall...because we continue NOT to understand each other or the issue...

I write a lot because I want to talk...I don't do that which "rewards flame war exchanges" because I don't want that to happen...as for "winning"? Well, I don't want there to be any "war" here in the first place, so who "wins" is immaterial: It's a LOSS to the wider discussion, whichever way you cut it or whoever "wins"...

This is the entire point, basically...you think that I have the same "objectives" as you, so when my style is "wrong" by those objectives, you think I'm "wrong"...no, no...quite the opposite...my "objectives" are NOT "winning a flame war", that my methods are, indeed, exactly that which does NOT "reward" or "win" a flame war...

In fact, you could say that this is the underlying CAUSE of all "war" and "conflict" in the first place...the "I win, you lose" mentality...the "I look good, everyone else must look like an idiot" objectives...that "superiority complex" itself...that you are "civilisation" and, thus, must cast everyone else as "barbarians"...that you are the "Master Race" and, thus, must cast everyone else as "animals" that "pollute" things...that you are "prolateriat" and, thus, must fight the "bourgoise"...that is the whole fracking point: That same mistake repeated over and over forever is really the cause of all war...

And, thus, "humility" perhaps has to be the beginning of any solution to it...I'm NOT "right"...and I want to hear what you have to say because perhaps you have "right" more than I do on something...it might - who knows? - also work the other way around that I might say something that makes you say "oh, now...there's an interesting way to look at it"...

That's totally 100% the point...trust me, if you want "wit" and "pithy" and such, then I'm actually brilliant at such things...I CHOOSE not to do so because that's the wrong approach here...that's the "problem" itself, not the solution...

So, elsewhere, you commented that my post would have been "effective" if I'd stopped after the "smartalec" comments about Bush...but, to be honest, it's those very comments that were "self-indulgent" and should have been removed...the top half was the "blathering" I should NOT have included, not the bottom half, which actually discusses why various types of "war" are inherently "unwinnable", by definition...the "insult Bush" bit was just me unable to resist the temptation of getting in a "dig" at the Commander-in-thief...but, truthfully, that wasn't the "best bit", the "effective" bit...that was the bit which shouldn't have been there...the bit where I wrongly gave in to stupid human "breast for tat" bullcrap...

But, anyway, perhaps it demonstrates, though, that I could do the "pithy" poo, if I wanted to...I CHOOSE not to do so because that just promotes further "conflict"...and that's exactly what I don't want...

Surely, USENET has proved it a million times over: You CANNOT "win" a "flame war"...it never works...it never succeeds...it just reduces the whole group to losing overall...indeed, some wars - most wars, perhaps all wars - are inherently "unwinnable"...that was my whole point...so, I'm not trying to "win"...I'm trying to understand what makes us try to do this "winning" crap, even when we know it inevitably leads to poo and, very often, losing...

I'm not "right"...that's the whole point...I'm human and I want to know what's WRONG with me that, like everyone else, I can be too easily dragged into this logical and inevitable FAILURE...I want to know what's going wrong when Hitler can drag Germany into such poo, when Bush can drag Americans into Iraq...I want to understand what that is, so that I can learn the "symptoms" and AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE...and, surely, if we can derive - by conversation - where we ALL get it wrong, then this will benefit us all...

I don't care for the "battles"...you have to lose some of those from time to time, to win the "war": And I declare war on war itself...I am a soldier for peace...and I do fully expect that this will bring every "army" that exists on my head to attack...but I am no pacifist by cowardice...if peace could be secured forever, then that benefits EVERYONE...for all time...that is my only "agenda" and, truthfully, whoever you are, you understand that and probably, somewhere, share it...

"This girl I know needs some shelter She don't believe anyone can help her She's doing so much harm, doing so much damage But you don't want to get involved You tell her she can manage And you can't change the way she feels But you could put your arms around her

I know you want to live yourself But could you forgive yourself If you left her just the way You found her?

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

You're a boy and i'm a girl But you know you can lean on me

AND I DON'T HAVE NO FEAR I'LL TAKE ON ANY MAN HERE WHO SAYS THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD BE

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

She's a girl and you're a boy Sometimes you look so small, look so small

You've got a baby of your own When your baby's gone, she'll be the one To catch you when you fall

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

You're a girl and I'm a boy x4

Sometimes you look so small, need some shelter Just runnin' round and round, helter skelter And I've leaned on me for years Now you can lean on me And that's more than Love, That's the way it should be

Now I can't change the way you feel But I can put my arms around you That's just part of the deal That's the way I feel I'll put my arms around you

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

I stand in front of you I'll take the force of the blow:

Protection

You're a boy and i'm a girl x4"

"Protection", Mbuttive Attack

Beth :)