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It doesn't seem logically possible to me that men and women can both be underrepresented, unless you use different definitions of "underrepresented" for the two groups.

Maybe I wasn't clear about what I meant: I'm using the definition of "underrepresented" that I think is most commonly used by the people who use the term -- something like "less than the group's representation in the general population, or the population of workers". Whether that's bad is another issue, addressed below.

Again I apparently wasn't clear, though I don't quite understand what you think I said.

Anyway, the long version of "Am I?" is "Am I getting told by people in the field that their shops don't agree with the stats I quoted?" See below.

Well. I went through the posts I've saved from this thread (and I *think* I saved all of the ones in this subthread), and I found a couple of claims of "there are women doing these jobs", and your mention of an all-female group at DEC ("the language group"), and that's it. These are excellent counterexamples showing that "there are no women in computing" is false. I don't understand how they contradict a claim that 20-30% of computing jobs are held by women.

I'm fairly sure that we've had exactly this discussion, in this group, some months ago, so I'll just summarize my position and try to stop arguing in circles:

If a group is "underrepresented" in a degree program, relative to its representation in all degree programs, then it makes sense to try to find out why. If it's because this group as a whole just isn't interested, based on a fairly accurate understanding of what the field involves, all is well. If there's some other reason, maybe changes should be made.

At graduation time, and also five years later, ten years later ....

All useful information, if it's available. How accurate are these predictions in the computing business? I don't know; I'm asking.

There are jobs for which people who fit the stereotype could be well suited -- though the impression I get from listening to people in the field is that there are very few jobs in which one can truly work alone, so some ability to work with others is an buttet.

And then there are jobs that seem to me to require some technical background, but for which someone who's attracted by the stereotype would *not* be well suited -- I'm thinking managers of programmers, or whatever-you-call-thems (systems analysts? business analysts?) who talk to end users and try to figure out how to build something to meet their needs.

My point is that people trying to make decisions about what kind of education or training to pursue should know that both kinds of jobs exist, and that training-education in CS can be a good preparation for both. (Well, unless I'm wrong about the jobs existing and needing technical background.)

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-- B. L. Mbuttingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.