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United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1568

Ray Fischer

Nope. My opinions and biases are freely expressed, and in this 'debate' I am not hiding anything or trying to. You made a statement: "... it was about the correlation between weapons and violence," after I had mentioned "victims." And perpetration, which would have to include a human actor.

Your attempt to keep the human element out was duly noted. I then asked you a question. Questions are not smokescreens.

My question was to include the people that effect the data on violence and the presence or absence of "weapons," guns in our discussion.

YOU are the one with the smokescreen I was removing for you and others to see what a thoroughgoing liar you are.

You are wrong, can't stand to BE wrong and will say anything no matter how stupid to stay in the game for your ego needs.

Odd. You make a claim in one sentence, then disprove it in the next.

The comment DID apply, because 'I' most certainly brought up "people."

Sheriffs don't collect stats on violence?

Then they are not likely to be elected next run for office. They MUST

Sheriffs most certainly DO collect crime statistics as a routine part of their responsibilities. I have worked with them for many years, and in many places. You are wrong. As usual.

United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1569
Ray Fischer Only by stopping at that point and avoiding what followed. Nope. It's right there. I asked for a clarifying statement from you, by the question of "who" does the violence and wields...

Not only do they collect them, they must tabulate and report them, and they have a vested interest in comparing their's to other counties' data for statistical purposes. They pour over the data that comes back from DOJ statistical analysts. As well as the annual crime report by the FBI (a division of the DOJ).

United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1574
Ray Fischer I run an airgun club in the middle of Nottingham. A few weeks...

You need to study up, boy.

If anyone is a better judge of what a DGU is, and how many they have in their county, and the rest of the country, it would be the Sheriffs of the US.

United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1575
steve Of course not, and that is why one of the VERY FEW gun OWNERSHIP control laws I favor and support is that one which makes it illegal for a mentally ill (or otherwise...

Not that state and city police do not have an interest as well. They must know what is going to when they submit budgets for their agencies and departments. The funding bodies demand it. No legislature is going to okay a budget without detailed crime figures, child.

Others may not be interested in DGUs, but sheriffs most certainly are. They usually have some direct contact with every single officer, and they read arrest reports of violent crime incidents with close attention.

Really? Would you care to engage a few in conversation and ask about their backgrounds? Elected sheriffs are rarely anything BUT well seasoned and trained college educated with many years of experience.

My own county sheriff has a Master's in criminal justice. It's common. He's an 18 year department veteran, very similar to most sheriffs in this country.

You have been watching too many of those old Burt Reynolds Smokey and the Bandit movies.

In a sheriff? Bullpoo. And even if he didn't have such training himself he'd have people in his department that were trained in such things.

And he gets his information in the form of statistically analyzed data from the DOJ and FBI where there highly trained scientific personnel, in both methods and statistics.

So I take it you would accept figures from those in LE with the requirements you just stated?

Then you are obligated to take the reports and information provided by the DOJ, on DGUs.

Do you remember how many they say are estimated by their studies?

You just painted yourself into a corner, unless you want to retract your requirement for information from the best trained scientific analysts in LE.

That doesn't mean that guns are a religion with me. Guns in fact play a very small and insignificant part in my life except for their potential, and the primary purpose, as far as I'm concerned, for their existence. Self protection.

I no longer hunt. Haven't for 20 years or so. Don't care to. Don't compete. Last time I did was even longer ago.

Don't go to war. Too old.

But those that would threaten the safety and lives of others haven't gone away, even though we've suppressed them considerably over the past few decades in this country.

Hence, if I have a "religion" pertaining to guns, it's one of self and community protection. A socially responsible good thing.


You've offered NO authority for your claims. I have for mine.


United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1573
Ray Fischer You seem to be very confused. First, if you mean gun, say gun. Not "weapon." There are other weapons. Paragraph one of your citation is about handguns. Paragraph two is about...

You haven't proven they don't know about crime trends. But you then point out they have to because of their need for a salary. Brilliant, stupid.

And I'll help you PROVE that claim you made by accusation:

If you read a few of these, which you won't of course, never arguing from facts, but just your top of the head babbling claims, you'll find that to justify grants from federal funding programs (and all LE departments apply for them...I know, I'm a grant writer), they must submit data, crime data.

Who too? The people that administer those grants, the DOJ, usually.

Metaphor is not "equivalence."

Doctors tend to know the data concerning their specialty. An oncologist, for instance, will tell you the percentage of recurrence of a cancer based on one set of Dx as compared to another. They know the statistics.

United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1571
Ray Fischer Nope. You cut the post. There was no change of subject. You yourself went ONE to make the same point...

LEOs know the same kinds of things about crime and types of crime. They are professionals.

In fact, ignorant one, the county -- the sheriff is the nexus for crime data Debt Collection in most areas, and is used to avoid duplication..all crime in a county, regardless of jurisdiction with the encompbutted cities, goes through the sheriff's department data systems:

"Duplication of effort is avoided through the Sheriff's computerized tracking system noted in the report. "

Been that way for some time. I've read the data, sitting at their terminal.


If I have a question about crime the first person in my community I ask is my friend, the sheriff, or his second, the under-sheriff. Both are very well educated, and very much on top of these things. So are most sheriffs. They are career LE professionals, or they don't get elected.

I happen to follow crime trends closely, and do public education on meth related crime, so each month I meet with the sheriff, agency heads from a number of involved agencies in my county, and neighboring counties and one of the items we go over is the crime numbers, in detail. Every single meeting. The sheriff has to know.

In fact, meth related crime has only recently come under closer study so that it is being separately tracked and amalgamated. I've been part of that effort. Both by lobbying and by actual work on projects and committees.

And, just to cheer you up; the last shooting we had, about two years ago (very rare here) was in fact, a DGU. Violent wife and child abuser tried to kill his father-in-law who intervened in his own home where his daughter and grandchildren had taken shelter, and then the violent son-in-law was shot and end as a result, by the father-in-law. G'Pop walked. As he should have.

United 93 Brought Down by Gun Control Laws 1572
Incomplete data. That is comparing people who defended themselves with a gun to people defending themselves with weapons other...

Not much gets past a county sheriff, including the cities within his county as to crime data. And nothing much gets past the DOJ and FBI when it comes to collecting data and analyzing it. What they look for within the data changes with the demands of the times. At present not a lot of emphasis has been placed on DGUs by data analysis, but the sheriffs at the field end are very aware of them. In blue states they tend to not discuss them as DGUs as much.

Tell us about these "rational people" people you are referring to. What is there expertise and authority for knowing that Sheriffs don't follow violent crime information? Reruns of Smokey and The Bandit?

You may THINK whatever you wish, but you need to examine why you'd have this irrational view based on nothing more than my postings here. I'm not even a tenth the enthusiast you'd find on some gun related newsgroups. But you make a conclusion. I think you have a need for attention, negative attention preferred. You should speak to someone about that.

Sir YOU have neither proven nor demonstrated nothing but your nothingnesses.

WE, on the other hand, have repeatedly proven with both logic and fact, including authority you demand. Yet you still are in denial.

To you? Yes, most butturedly. I hope to increase your belief in that as the days and weeks pbutt, or you can run.

One way of running will be to resort to ad hominem rather than argument.

You have provided no logical support for your claims about violence and guns, and you have run from argument that would confound your claim.

It has been pointed out to you that violence occurs where there are guns and were there are not. And you have had NO reply other than your belief we are a cult or religion.

And you have provided NO proof we are either.

In fact, we are highly diverse. Even politically. There are liberals here that support gun ownership for defensives use, as well as conservatives. There are Christians, and I presume other theist faiths represented, and non-theists, as well...I am one.

Are you saying we are united in this one thing, that that therefore makes us members of a cult?

We have none of those characteristics, including that of giving up our wealth and decision making to a central person or authority. You can tell by our posts... that we are not in full agreement with each other.

Cult members can't get away with that. Yet we do, and still manage to maintain civil discourse and argument on the less central matters pertaining to guns.

You are a nut case, sir, and I say that after mounting this argument today demonstrating it clearly to you.

-- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

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