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On Sat, 30 Jul 2005, Kamal R. Prasad

Without: i) problems yet appearing in the short run, ii) and without the broader negative effects yet being recognized by society.

The way you stated it, originally, you made an absolute, accross-the-board conclusion and you made that conclusion prematurely.

Also, as we have examples both in China and Japan, all of our markets are open to them, but not yet all of their markets are open to us.

Your "no" is not the appropriate response to the situation I gave; please read what I said again: a large fraction of the comapnies who have done offshoring were not doing it because they were in economic trouble (i.e. going out of business). This is also different than what you originally implied.

They are doing it for the selfish purposes of the executives, not the broader good of the world. Also, everyone knows this already.

On the surface, a free market means anyone can carry out any activities (presumably legal, but not necessarily) for the purpose of net gain. However, the details are always geared to making more money for the executives and to some degree the investors. Where this money comes from, who it hurts, and what else happens in society are some questions that are not asked.

How come you are always, if not most of the time, defending India and all of the offshoring?

Hah.. we've got a lot of people over here trying to work out a career path that won't have them impacted by corporate executives who treat human beings like kleenex.

No? You sure sound like you are to me.

and live in a country which

All of that trade involves a great deal of merchandise and service coming into the country and a GREAT deal of money going OUT. 30-50% of all real estate in most if not all of our big cities is owned by foreigners. did you know that?

Our South always had, through the 1800s, command of textiles because of slaves that were in the USA.

The USA fed the world up until the last few years (when Russia-USSR freed farmers to farm their own way; Now Russia is a net exporter of wheat). Much of the farming improvements in the rest of the world were due to agronomists from the USA showing others how to farm and do plant breeding.

manufacturing of heavy

Such as, what?

Except for electronics, TV, cameras (which went to Japan, Taiwan) from about 1970-1990, we made all of our own stuff. All this stuff, and computers & chips, got really cheap IN PARALLEL WITH THE DEVELOPMENT AND EXPANSION OF THE INTERNET starting in ~1990 and it moved away from Japan and to Korea, Phillipines, China, SEA in general. All of the major PC (even Apple & the iPod) hardware ONLY started becomeing manufactured AND designed in China, SEA, in the last roughly five years. The vast majority of the office-type service work done in India, today, moved there only in the last roughly five years. I've been reading labels on the bottom of products all my life.

And, it gets back to this: ************************* The subbreastle of the article is: "For decades economists have insisted that the U.S. wins from globalization. Now they are not so sure"

They quoted Paul Samuelson (MIT) as saying "Comparative advantage cannot be counted on to create...net gains greater than the net losses from trade" *************************************

and I understand that.

Oh, I think you spoke only about the advantages of offshoring and globalization and I think you need to speak a little more often and recognize that its not all a big gift from heaven.

Your whole problem is that you

Oh, I think what we need is a little more attention and recognition that offshoring and globalization is not good for everyone. And, forget this idea that "businesses need this to survive and grow; they can't do it without." We've got record corporate crime in the USA these days and it all just shows these executives and greedy-selfish people don't care who they hurt or how they hurt their country.

Oh, it gets into our newspapers and I've seen memorandums circulate in companies that say "we have to comply with this".

Oh btw -captive labour

Fine, I hope you don't forget that a lot of people had slaves, even in India in the past (and it was, and still is, common for men, women, and children to be sold in most of these countries), so don't just focus on America.

And, many other professions and jobs.

Fine.

You edited out what I was responding to. So if I want to explain this to you, then I have to dig out the past post. I don't have time for that.

Blore is in India, so are you, no?

Yes...but...

Their citizenry has no education, no

..all of that money is in the hands of a very few people-families who keep that money and rule, traditionally, with it. I am not so sure that all work there is done by foreigners. Maybe a lot, but I think not all. Saudi bought or nationalized some or all of the oil companies some time ago and under some kind of complicated agreement that keep the wheels turning. I am pretty sure about this.

But, since the money is tied up in the hands of a few, then there are no other factors. This is why there is some dissent both in and out of Saudi about "democratizing" the country so it frees up the non-rich and maybe diversifies the society (more like the USA, now). Then you can have other factors that interact.

You have to look at number of jobs occupied by a worker (the workforce) divided by the total population. This has to be adjusted by the number of people too young to work legally AND by the number of retired people.

Has it remained constant or

Jobs were both destroyed (see Jeremy Rifkin "The End of Work") which unfairly hurt unsend people (which was always true, even in 1800s) and created (the new high-tech and professional jobs). IN the last few years there has been official data on actual new jobs and how many new jobs are needed. But there is less good data on what the average wage is for these new jobs. There is some data that show that Mexican immigrants do drive down wages and the ones hurt by this are our unsend blacks. So, this has nothing to do with India-Indians. But the picture with programming and call centers is different. There are other areas, too. But, when Intel, for example, has 500 Russians in Russia on their payroll early this year and says they are hiring 500 more by the end of this year and they say nothing about hiring Americans, then all those American guys that wold love to work for Intel and have good schooling have wasted their time and tuition money. And, this is not Indias fault. But, when Microsoft, etc., starts hiring in India and not or less so in the USA, then it hurts the US guys. And, it is a lie when they say they can't find workers. They just want cheap labor and people under 40 years old (for which we have a law against and there are a lot of court cases on this). But, all of this is just part of the picture.

and, see below...

So, this is a large net loss for US guys and a growth over the loss for Indian guys.

Yeah, but if India does the circuitous route, then it can bring in Indians on L-1 visa which has no time limits and is very fast to process.

The Indian news websites are even ahead of our New York Times.

And, for some of our politicians they are recognizing that they are supposed to be working for US people, citizens, country, and there is some move to save our jobs for people in the US and not brought in on visas. How this works out in the long run is unknown.

walmart wants to open supermarkets in India

Well, I don't like walmart, either. IN the end, they may be worse than communism. YOur people and all will then go deeper into debt while the executives will get even more rich. Maybe there will be an expansion of materialism in India, too, but I'm not sure this is a good way to go.

Trade agreements are like a form of barter

Always benefiting the rich, and bribes to politicians.

I think we need to expand our consbreastution, bill of rights, laws, and regulatory agencies meant to watch out for evil and criminal actions by the crooks in the executive offices.