qGates_a_doing_the_ms.Shuffle_=A9

Q: In or about June 1995, Mr. Gates, did you become involved in the planning for some meetings with Netscape?

A: No.

..

Do you understand the reference to Dan to be a reference to Dan Rosen?

A: Probably. .. Q: Did you talk to people to find out whether there was a May meeting?

A: Yes.

Q: Who did you talk to?

A: I consulted with my lawyers.

..

Q: Now, have you ever read the complaint in this case?

A: No.

Q: Have you ever received a summary of the complaint in this case?

A: I wouldn't say I've received a summary, no. I have talked to my lawyers about the case, but not really the complaint.

..

"Q: Have you ever had discussions within Microsoft about the desirability of trying to undermine Sun because of what Sun was doing in Java?

A: I said to you, part of our activity is to go out and work with customers to see what it takes to have them choose to license our products, and that's in compebreastion with many other companies, including Sun."

(pause.)

Q: I'm not now talking about what you do in compebreastion with other products or other companies. what I'm talking about is whether or not you've had discussions with people within Microsoft in which you talked about the need to undermine Sun--using those words, if that will help you--within Microsoft.

A: I don't remember using those words. ..

A: As I've said, anything about Java, you've got to show me a context before I can answer because just the term "Java" itself can mean different things. ..

Q: well, let me show you .. an e-mail message from you to Paul Maritz and others ..

A: I don't remember sending it.

..

Q: Do you recognize that this is a document produced from Microsoft's files, do you not, sir?

A: No.

Q: You don't?

A: Well, how would I know that?

Q: Well, do you see the document production numbers down at the bottom?

A: I have no idea what those numbers are." ..

Q: Let me go back to the e-mail, Mr. Gates. what did you mean when you asked Mr. Maritz whether or not, quote, we have a clear plan on what we want Apple to do to undermine Sun, closed quote?

A: I don't remember. ..

Did you receive a copy of this e-mail on or about february 13th, 1998?

A: I don't know."

..

Q: Do you know why Mr. Bradford would have written this in February of 1998 and sent a copy to you?

A: I'm not sure. .. Q: Did you have any conversations with anyone within Microsoft as to what position Microsoft should take with Apple in terms of what Microsoft should ask Apple for in return for Microsoft developing Macoffice?

A: What time frame are you in? ..

Q: Wwell, you threatened to cancel Macoffice, did you not, sir?

A: No.

..

Q: In the second paragraph you say, quote, I have two key goals in investing in the Apple relationship: one, maintain our applications share on the platform; and two, see if we can get them to embrace Internet Explorer in some way, closed quote. do you see that?

A: Yeah.

Q: Does that refresh your recollection as to what your two key goals were in connection with Apple in June of 1996?

A: First of all, June of 1996 is not in the time frame that your previous question related to. And certainly in the e-mail to this group, I'm not talking about the patent thing, but believe me, it was our top goal in thinking about Apple for many, many years because of their buttertions. .. Q: Let me be clear. when you write to Mr. Maritz and Mr. Silverberg, you talk about patents, do you not, sir?

A: Where do you see that?

..

Q: Mr. Gates, my question is whether it is your testimony today here under oath that when you talk about your two key goals in investing in the Apple relationship in the second paragraph of this e-mail, that is different than what your key goals were in the deal that you proposed five paragraphs later?

A: That's right. investing in a relationship is different than the deal.

..

Q: And when in describing the deal the five paragraphs later, the very first thing that Microsoft gets is, quote, Apple endorses Microsoft Internet Explorer technology, closed quote, did that indicate to you that that was an important part of what you were getting in terms of the deal?

A: No such deal was ever struck, so I'm not sure what you're saying.

Q: Was that an important part of the deal that you were trying to get, sir?

A: We never got as far as trying to get that deal, unfortunately.

Q: you never got as far as trying to get that deal? is that what you're saying?

A: No. well, in this time frame ..

..

Q: All right, sir. now, you'd said that the deal that you were talking about never got done. Did you ever get Apple to endorse Microsoft Internet Explorer technology?

A: You're trying to just read part of that?

..

Q: Does the deal prohibit them from shipping Netscape's browser without also shipping Internet Explorer?

A: I'd have to look at the deal to understand.

..

Q: You say in this e-mail that you have two key goals for investing in the Apple relationship. one of--

A: In investing in the Apple relationship.

Q: One of them is to get Apple to embrace internet technology in some way. What I'm asking you is whether that changed after this person got fired ..

The witness: you keep, either intentionally or unintentionally, trying to confuse my goals for investing in the relationship with .. Apple.

..

Q: What I think I've done is I think I have mentioned the first goal a number of times.

A: I don't think so."

..

Q: Okay. was it a key goal?

A: I'm not sure what you mean by `key goal.' it was a goal.

..

Do you recall conveying to your executive staff, in or about august of 1997, that your top priority was to get Microsoft's browser in the october os release from Apple?

A: no, I don't recall that.

..

Q: Did you instruct your executive staff, in or about august of 1997, to work out a, quote, Apple bundle deal, closed quote?

A: well, I think this is post the August agreement ..

..

Q: Okay. the last sentence of the second paragraph says, `Bill was clear that his whole goal here is to keep Apple and Sun split. he doesn't care that much about being aligned with Apple. he just wants them split from other potential allies.' and that relates to Java, does it not, sir?

A: I don't have a direct recollection ..

..

Q: let me ask you to look at a document that has been previously marked as Government 58. This is an e-mail to you from Dan Slivka, dated April 14, 1997. and the subject is, quote, Java review with you, closed quote. did you receive this e-mail in or about April of 1997, Mr. Gates?

A: I don't remember.

..

Q: The e-mail begins that the author is working with Paul Maritz to set up a two- to three-hour review for you on your Java efforts. do you see that?

A: On our Java efforts.

Q: on Microsoft's Java efforts.

A: No, I think it's Ben Slivka's group.

Q: And he is a Microsoft group; right?

A: yes. he's part of Microsoft, but not all of Microsoft.

..

Q: Do you have any reason to believe that he would have misstated what you told him when you met with him last, before april 14, 1997?

A: In no way does this purport to be a restatement of things I said to Ben Slivka.

Q: Well, Mr. Gates, what this memorandum says is, quote, when I met with you last, you had a lot of pretty pointed questions about Java, so I want to be sure I understand your issues and concerns. here is a start. can you please add any that I'm missing? and then he lists six, the second of which is, `how do we wrest control of Java away from Sun?' you see that in the exhibit, do you not, sir?

A: Umm-hmm, yes.

Q: Did you have personally any discussions with Apple with regard to trying to agree with Apple as to the extent to which Apple and Microsoft would compete with respect to Apple's Quicktime software?

A: No.

..

Q: does Microsoft have software that competes with Quicktime?

A: since Quicktime's a free runtime, you can answer that either yes or no. it's not a revenue source for Apple. but there is an Apple technology that has some common things with some Microsoft technologies.

Q: Do you believe that Quicktime software competes with any software distributed by Microsoft?

Mr. Heiner: Objection.

The witness: Depends on what you mean compete.

..

Q: Did you make any effort, or did Microsoft make any effort, to get Apple to agree not to market Quicktime in any respect, or to limit the marketing of Quicktime in any respect? by Mr. Boies:

Q: Can you answer that question, sir?

Mr. Heiner: Objection.

The Witness: I'm not aware of anything that is directly aimed as those things, no.

..

Q: Insofar as you're aware, did Microsoft representatives tell Apple representatives that if Apple would agree not to sell or promote Quicktime for uses for which Microsoft offered Netshow, that Microsoft would help Apple in other areas?

A: Well, the Quick--as far as I know, the Quicktime runtime is free. so, when you say `sell,' I don't know--I'm not sure what you mean there.

..

Q: Well, was the purpose of creating the new Windows Media Player that you referred to, to obsolete Quicktime?

A: Whatever functionality Quicktime had previously would be unaffected by any such effort.

Q: That really wasn't my question, mr. gates. maybe I can state it more clearly. did Microsoft try to convince Apple to take actions which would have resulted in Apple no longer distributing Quicktime to people to whom Microsoft was distributing netshow or a successor Microsoft product?

A: I'm not aware of anything that would have stopped them from distributing the Quicktime ..

Q: Did Microsoft offer to have Apple continue to offer a multimedia player for the Mac platform and to buttist Apple in that if Apple would agree not to distribute that multimedia player for the windows platform?

A: As I said, I don't think there was any discussions about not distributing some old thing ..

Q: Was the idea that once this new thing was created, the old thing that Apple was distributing would no longer be distributed by Apple?

A: As I said, I don't think that was part of the discussion.

Q: Have you ever been told anything, or have you read anything, about any contention that Apple may or may not make concerning these discussions?

A: No."

(pause.)

Q: Are you aware of any buttertions by Apple representatives that Microsoft representatives tried to get them to agree to divide the market?

A: No.

Q: No one has ever told you that?

A: That's right.

Q: And you've never heard that from any source?

A: That's right.

Q: Do I take it from what you said yesterday that if, in fact, Microsoft representatives had attempted to get Apple representatives to participate in a market division, that would be contrary to Microsoft policy?

Mr. Heiner: Objection.

..

Q: Are you aware of a Wall Street Journal article that discusses buttertions by Apple concerning alleged efforts by Microsoft to get Apple to agree to divide markets?

A: No.

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"What could be better than having to sit through hours of butt-numbing depositions from Microsoft executives during the company's anbreastrust dust up with the US Department of Justice (DoJ)?"